A Religious Interview
On Tuesday, 27 May 1997, we, the members of the religion group, did our field work in a small town in North Wales: Blaenau Ffestiniog.
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While all the others were still having breakfast, we already hurried to the bus station. The journey took about 30 minutes and we were very much concerned about the driver's breath-taking way of moving the bus. In spite of some initial problems in finding Rev. Jones' house, we finally managed to get there. Rev. Jones invited us into his house and his wife prepared tea and cookies in their kitchen. In this way, we got to know each other before we started our interview. The couple kindly offered to let us use their cassette recorder for recording. Since the interview was very comprehensive, we chose its most interesting excerpts for this report:
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Rev. and Mrs.
Jones
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| Lars: | Would you please tell us some general facts about your own church? |
| Rev. Jones: | I am the minister of the Scottish Baptist church (This does not mean that its members are Scots but that there is a slight difference in theology to the Welsh Baptists. The author.) here in Blaenau Ffestiniog. This is a very small church and as a result, we worship with the Welsh Baptists, because they have no minister and I have no congregation. The differences between us are very small. It works well and we meet with them at least once a month. In Harlech we are by now the strongest denomination among the Nonconformists. I have some pastoral responsibilities there. Since we have a woman minister there, who is very successful, I have almost become a sort of visiting preacher there. |
| Jeannette: | How old are the people attending your church? |
| Rev. Jones: | Congregations tend to be much older than the population in the community. We suffer from a great lack of young people in our churches but that applies to all the Nonconformists. Perhaps that's less so as far as the Anglicans and the Catholics are concerned. |
| Mrs. Jones: | What about the Sunday schools? |
| Rev. Jones: | They are a vital part of Nonconformity and flourish in some places, e.g. Harlech. |
| Lars: | Do you believe that religious Nonconformity played a role in creating a Welsh identity? How important was it compared to other factors, e.g. the Welsh language? |
| Mrs. Jones: | The vast majority of ordinary people were very radical in their approach. The landlords were Anglicans and the ordinary people wanted to be different from these people and one way was to worship differently. But they had to fight very hard, e.g. for getting the expensive land for their chapels. |
| Rev. Jones: | There are three elements and it is impossible to distinguish the effect and the influence of one on the other: Nonconformity, radical politics and the Welsh language. Without Nonconformity and without the Welsh Bible the Welsh language would have gone, as the Irish language has. Radicalism is part of the Welsh history and was influenced by Nonconformity. |
| Mrs. Jones: | Another thing is that the landed gentry's focal point became London after the unification with England in 1536. They became anglicized and many couldn't speak Welsh any longer. |
| Betty: | Are there any atheists in this community? |
| Rev. Jones: | Yes, but they are passive non-believers. Just very few people are actively opposed to religion. |
| Lars: | Wales is famous for its religious revivals. Did they shape the Welsh identity? What are the causes for their appearance? |
| Rev. Jones: | The last real revival was in 1904/1905 and it shaped Welsh life, outlook and mentality for 50 years. |
| Mrs. Jones: | They belong to the Welsh people. They call this 'religious enthusiasm'. People here are very emotional, the revivals gave them a chance to release their energy and to be active. |
| Rev. Jones: | The revivals are one of the reasons why we are still Welsh and have not become part of England and for our existence as a nation. We need another revival badly at the moment. |
| Lars: | Did the Welsh see themselves as a chosen people? |
| Rev. Jones: | There is a comparison between the Jewish people and the Welsh, parallels can be found in their history. There is sometimes the idea: if we are a nation and if we persist in being a nation then it must be because there is some divine reason for this. 'Remember that you are a nation because God made you one' is part of the Welsh psyche. |
| Mrs. Jones: | When we want to communicate with each other and with God, it must be in Welsh otherwise it does not mean the same to us. Welsh is often referred to as 'God's language' or the 'language of heaven'. (smiles.) |
| Lars: | How would you explain the enormous decline in chapel membership? |
| Rev. Jones: | You can trace it back to the enlightenment and the process of science. The two world wars had an enormous effect on people's habits, e.g. on Sundays they had to go to work and could not go to church. Therefore people turned away from organized religion. |
| Mrs. Jones: | It is more attractive to watch a football match or to go shopping on Sundays. |
| Rev. Jones: | John Davies once wrote: "People are religious during periods when children die. When infant mortality fell away, people's attraction to religion also declined." It is an interesting opinion but I do not absolutely agree with him. |
| Lars: | What would you consider the most important thing for Wales? |
| Rev. Jones: | We are very much in need of a religious revival. The whole way of life is not improving. People have to stop and think. |
During the interview Rev. Jones mentioned the name of Father Deiniol, a Greek Orthodox priest, and recommended us to see him too and ask him the same questions. This priest had been raised in the nonconformist faith but later converted to the Orthodox belief. Therefore he could answer our questions from a different point of view.
We met Father Deiniol and he, again, provided some tea and cookies for us in his garden. After a short introduction of ourselves we interviewed Father Deiniol.
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Father Deiniol
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| Lars: | Could you say a few words about yourself? |
| Father Deiniol: | I am Father Deiniol, a Welshman, priest of this Orthodox church (one of only 3 in Wales). The community is partly made up of people who were born orthodox, but most of the people are converts to the Orthodox Church like myself. |
| Lars: | Did religious Nonconformity play a role in creating a Welsh identity? |
| Father Deiniol: | Yes, it did in the last two centuries. But we have to go further back because it existed earlier, it has just changed. Protestantism preserved the Welsh language. Until the Reformation there were many dialects but no standard Welsh. The translation of the Bible into Welsh preserved the Welsh language and identity. Nonconformity is the Welsh form of Christianity. The Anglican Church was very English in ethos, had influence on landowners but not on ordinary people. |
| Lars: | Did the revivals shape the Welsh identity? |
| Father Deiniol: | The negative aspect of Nonconformity is that it has never looked back further than the last two centuries. Nonconformity saved the Welsh language, gave strong national identity, the love and knowledge of the Word of God and put emphasis on the personal relationship with Christ. But there is this psychological break: people believe that there is no Welsh identity without Nonconformity. Earlier there was the poetry of the Saints and this predated Nonconformity. |
| Lars: | Do the Welsh consider themselves to be a chosen people? If so, why? |
| Father Deiniol: | The Welsh saw themselves as very distinct and distinctive. It helped in creating a national identity. Now the Welsh culture is indistinguishable from the English or American culture. There are even people who go to church just because they think it is the Welsh thing to do. |
| Lars: | What is Wales most desperately in need of? |
| Father Deiniol: | We need spiritual direction. The lives of people are very empty, there are many problems in many areas and also in this area and a lack of interest in religious matters. There is a need for the opening of the hearts of the Welsh to each other and to God. |
Since we had to be at the funeral service in time, we had to break off the interview and could not ask all our questions. Before we bade farewell, Father Deiniol showed us his small church, which was just a room in his house. We were impressed by its richness of decoration with icons and candles.
Then we hurried to the funeral service in St. Jerusalem Chapel. Arriving there, we were met in front of the church and were seen to the gallery. The service had already begun and we listened to Rev. Jones' sermon, about 80% of which was delivered in English. The reason for preaching in English was that the person who had died had come from England. Normally, preaching is in Welsh, therefore this service was a special event. We were not seen as intruders there, because it is not unusual in Wales that strangers participate in funeral services.
Rev. Williams
After we had left the chapel, a Presbyterian minister came to us, introduced himself as Reverend Williams and wanted to get to know us. After a few words he invited us to toast and beans because we had not had anything for lunch yet. Therefore we walked to his house and spent about two very interesting hours there, eating and talking. Rev. Williams is a very interesting character. He can read and understand German but has some difficulties in speaking it. As far as his duties as minister are concerned, he told us that he was responsible for six congregations, one of which is an English speaking one.
When the time had come to catch our bus, Rev. Williams guided us to the bus station. This marked the end of our interesting day in Blaenau Ffestiniog. Having welcomed us in their homes in a very friendly way, all the fascinating people we met had answered our questions willingly and as detailed as possible.
For all members of the religion group the field work in the little town in North Wales was the most interesting part of our study trip.
LR/BS/JB
Reverend Bob Hughes
We met Reverend Hughes in the staff room of Coleg Harlech. First, over a cup of tea, we had a lively talk about the Welsh language in education. Then we went outside to discuss religion in Wales, especially the Anglican church and Nonconformism.
First, Mr Hughes told us an interesting personal story. He himself is an Anglican clergyman. He had spent his childhood in Wales, but he was trained in the Church of England. At this time rules were very strict. The Church in Wales did not train non-native speakers of Welsh. So his background became the Church of England. He worked in England most of his life, i.e. 25 years at the University of Birmingham in student welfare work. He only practised religion on weekends. When he retired to Harlech he became a full-time clergyman.
Generally, in his opinion the Church of England is different with regard to their official status within the state and the government. Bishops have seats in the Parliament and the Queen is always officially a member for example. In Wales there is a considerable amount of Nonconformism. These branches of Protestantism sprang up in the 18th and 19th century in order to protest against the established church. So-called Chapels arose, which aimed at objecting to the organized church. Some of the Chapels became very well known such as the Methodists or the Baptists while others were only important in a very small area. One of them are the Scotch Baptists in Harlech. Nowadays they are the liveliest of all Chapels there. Hughes explains this partly by the fact that they are well-run and partly by their social function. The Chapel consists of a very large and successful Harlech family. So their members are mostly relatives. As a result their children attend Sunday school and also bring their friends, which guarantees a large and lively Sunday school.
The Reverend does not see any minister as an opponent. Once a month they organize a joint service in the different churches and work together very well. As already mentioned the Chapels arose because they objected to other churches, they wanted to go their own way. At the beginning of the 20th century, under the Welsh Prime Minister Lloyd George, power was largely taken away from the Church in Wales. It lost its land and possessions and also its official position. In practice this means that in England anybody can get married in the Church while in Wales only actual members can. The church does not have more rights than the Chapels. Reverend Hughes told us he appreciated that because only if people wanted the church to have certain rights the church would be allowed to demand those.
The Chapels nowadays have big problems to stay in existence, they are tending to die away. For example one of them was forced to sell part of their building to a Toyota car dealer. Some time ago a minister of another Chapel wanted Reverend Hughes to confirm his daughter in the Church in Wales as in his Chapel there were no members under 50, most of them over 70. These problems result from the fact that protest is no longer necessary. Things have been put right in the Church, for example as far as the connection between the government and the Church is concerned. The Church of England was considered the Conservative Party of prayer. It had followed a right-wing policy but now it is moving towards a more moderate position.
Being asked about his attitude towards the Chapels, Hughes stated that he could learn from them and they could learn from him. Chapels do not use books for their sermons and so they have a more lively service. But one minister had borrowed Hughes' book for funerals. In Hughes' opinion there are no real sources of misunderstanding but a coming together whenever it is necessary, be it baptism or funerals. But there is one major point in which the Chapels are different. They have always been very strict in using the Welsh language and are an important part of Welsh culture. The songs and hymns they have been famous for are nowadays translated into English. They only use Welsh in their services. When people from England retire to Wales they want to attend services in their original Chapel. But then they find out that they do not understand a single word. So they go to the Church in Wales where only one reading is done in Welsh. Their influence sometimes drives Welshmen out of the church because English people take leadership positions. Hughes himself does not preach in Welsh as he does not feel comfortable enough in the language. He had spent his childhood in Wales but attended school in England and had not learnt Welsh properly. His father had spoken some Welsh, his mother had not. But he always wanted to come back to Wales. So when the vicar in Harlech left, Hughes became a full-time clergyman there. As a last point he surprised us with some very interesting statistics: He told us: "Still more people go to church on Sundays than watch football on Saturdays".
KV
nother issue we wanted to take a closer look at is religion. Here, Wales is also a special case, and the religion specialists enquired about the influence of e.g. Nonconformism on people's attitudes and lives. We found much to investigate in North Wales, and went to interview several ministers of different churches. Here are the reports on what they had to say.